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Kentucky Governor Steve Beshear and Ohio Governor John Kasich today signed an agreement that describes in broad terms how their two states will cooperatively build a new bridge over the Ohio River between Cincinnati and Covington. December 12, 2012.
Ohio Gov. John Kasich
This is frustrating to read, to say the least. The Wall Street Journal reports that building trades unions may endorse Ohio Gov. John Kasich, an anti-union Republican, for re-election:
Members of building trades unions—including carpenters, laborers, electricians and iron workers—tend to be more conservative politically than most other union members. They often side with business over environmental groups and find common ground with Republicans on infrastructure projects.

"We're pragmatic with our politics. Jobs are our currency," said Sean McGarvey, president of the Building and Construction Trades Department at the AFL-CIO in Washington.

In Ohio, union leaders caution that the courtship between Mr. Kasich and the building trades is relatively new. Still, the political-action committee of the state's trades unions gave his campaign the maximum contribution, and it is "very possible" the Ohio State Building and Construction Trades Council, whose member unions represent 90,000 hard hats, will endorse the governor, said Dennis Duffey, secretary-treasurer of the group.

While persistently high unemployment among construction workers has their unions frantic (reasonably enough) to find jobs anywhere possible, this is some extremely short-term thinking. Kasich hasn't gone after unions since the epic defeat of SB 5, the bill he pushed attacking public sector workers. But that doesn't mean his longer-term goal doesn't remain damaging to the union movement. And while building trades unions might be temporarily strengthened by an infusion of infrastructure spending in Ohio, they'd be weakened in the longer run by strengthening politicians who would like to attack them. Right to work might be off the immediate agenda in Ohio, but that doesn't mean it's off the Republican long-term wish list.

Ohio building trades unions should take a look at what happened in New Jersey last fall. After building trades unions there endorsed Gov. Chris Christie for re-election because he was supposedly going to create jobs for them—never mind that he had begun his first term by canceling a massive infrastructure project—Christie went right ahead and weakened prevailing wage requirements on businesses receiving tax credits, a direct strike against construction workers.

Additionally, at the national level, Republican politicians are choking infrastructure investment of the sort that would create construction jobs. Republicans and trades unions might be on the same page in wanting Keystone XL approval, but for basically every other infrastructure project you can name—mass transit, roads, bridges, schools—Republicans are standing squarely in the way of the investments that would create construction jobs.

Originally posted to Daily Kos Labor on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 12:23 PM PDT.

Also republished by Daily Kos.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Kasich is worse than this guy (6+ / 0-)

    Know that $20 I owe you? Well, since money equals speech, then speech, of course, must equal money. C'mere and I'll read you the Tao Te Ching.

    by thenekkidtruth on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 12:32:45 PM PDT

    •  I am frankly stunned (10+ / 0-)

      Right to work is NOT "off the agenda." That these guys are so politically naive they don't recognize Kasichspeak for "I know it's suicide to talk about this but it's at the top of my list" is stunning. I mean he always says things like "I'm not thinking about the future," when asked about things he doesn't want to talk about because they're political suicide. That's what he said when asked about right to work. And right to work is SB 5 on steroids. It's not just about destroying the public union but ALL unions. These guys' jobs will be history if Kasich is reelected. I hope they enjoy the low wage jobs that replace their cushy union jobs.

      It's pretty much an open secret here in Ohio that right to work is at the very TOP of the to-do list of the legislature and Kasich the minute the election is out of the way. I keep hearing they will do it in lame duck session regardless of whether Kasich wins or not. That means another grueling, costly campaign whose success will probably hinge on having Ed Fitzgerald as governor and Nina Turner as secretary of state.

      Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

      by anastasia p on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 07:11:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I've talked (6+ / 0-)

        with a UA President (pipefitters) concerning this. They're trying to cut a deal on prevailing wage foremost. He gave me the old "if we're on the inside maybe we can stop some of the bad things blah blah blah"...I asked him "what forget about getting Fitz elected?? Reminds me of the "Teamsters for Taft" bullshit.
        Why these numbnuts have written Fitz off already pisses me off....

        6% of scientists are republican. Scientists have no explanation why that number is so high.

        by fugwb on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 07:35:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's BS fort sure. n/t (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Stude Dude, buffie

          Any man's death diminishes me because I am involved in mankind. Therefore, send not to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee. John Donne

          by scurrvydog on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 07:52:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  In the past year, only one poll (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dirtandiron

          has shown Fitz with a lead, and guess who conducted that one?

          http://www.realclearpolitics.com/...

          Unlike AA, unions are tired of being taken for granted by us. Is it smart? Of course not; but when we can't get card check passed with 58-59 Senate seats (60 briefly), The Prez and House majority, can you blame them.

          I guess the GOP is worse excuse is losing it's potency with them. Lucky for Dems, we still fall in line, myself included.

          New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

          by AlexDrew on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 08:33:45 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Calm down. (0+ / 0-)
        These guys' jobs will be history if Kasich is reelected.

        New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

        by AlexDrew on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 08:25:07 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  What are you basing this on? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dirtandiron
        cushy union jobs.
        Are you an electrician?

        New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

        by AlexDrew on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 08:26:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Work for one day as a laborer on a curb crew, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AlexDrew

        or an ironworker doing connecting, or an operator working in a hazmat suit in the summer heat, and tell me it's a cushy job.

        Where are all the jobs, Boehner?

        by Dirtandiron on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 08:43:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Going against self interest? Maybe (10+ / 0-)

    This is the problem when we criticize people for going against their self interest. Where does my self interest begin and end. Easy to criticize support of short term fixes over long term fixes when the short term is desperate.

    The GOP specializes in this sort of bait and switch. But they can do it because the Dems are too strategic for their own good. Have to be working both sides of the game, long term and short term.

    •  Kasich is not a short-term fix (6+ / 0-)

      or a long-term one. He's not the guy creating their jobs or protecting the ones that exist. It's an open secret his first act after election will be to destroy them. This is enough to make me not give a shit about the inevitable repeal campaign we'll be waging next year to try to restore union bargaining power to Ohio.

      Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

      by anastasia p on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 07:13:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Construction Skilled Tradespeople ... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Naniboujou, auapplemac

      Are unlike other union members in that they are often (subcontractors) - independent business owners who's "employers" are the general contractor - they often own their own tools and equipment, and work on a 1099 basis, many even have employees - like any small business owner.

      No guaranteed paycheck from "ABC company", and often have to travel far and long from home to earn their living.

      Makes for a completely different philosophy concerning the economy and their politics.

      Still a problem, but not surprising - the same has happened in the trucking industry after deregulation - and many truckers are still staunch conservative Repubs.

      “Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” ... Voltaire

      by RUNDOWN on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 07:26:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  They vote for their tribe; the republicons own (7+ / 0-)

    white working class voters.

    Dems don't have the right message or the right policies to appeal to these voters.

    Shrug & sigh?!

    nosotros no somos estúpidos

    by a2nite on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 12:55:39 PM PDT

    •  I'm not sure. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JJ In Illinois, AlexDrew

      I think it's more pragmatism. (Or cynicism, if you want to look at it that way)  The building trades unions have bad memories of backing the losing side. And the officials of those unions understand real-world pragmatic politics, they had to win election to get into office in the first place.

      Where are all the jobs, Boehner?

      by Dirtandiron on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 02:00:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  They have EXACTLY the "right message" (3+ / 0-)

      Democratic gubernatorial candidate Ed FitzGerald has such a "right message" it's stunning.

      "Shrug and sigh"? Them's fighting words, enemy.

      Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

      by anastasia p on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 07:14:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Agree (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DROzone

      A lot of these guys' entire identify outside work is hunting and/or fishing. Even if not dues paying NRA members they still buy the line. They've been conditioned to hate anything to do with conservation and environmentalism. Science…Whoa, back off dude. Higher gas prices means more drilling to them. Killing off the planet is fine as long as they can keep trucking' down the road in mambo trucks - It's their constitutional right.

      Unfortunately there's probably not much reasoning with these people for progressives. What really sucks is they get to take everybody else down the drain with them.    

    •  If they had the right message and right policies (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Egalitare

      they'd be Republicans.

    •  The "message and policies" required to... (0+ / 0-)

      ..."win" those votes probably is a net vote loss for us.

      Change does not roll in on the wheels of inevitability, but comes through continuous struggle. --Martin Luther King Jr.

      by Egalitare on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 02:39:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  THE REPUBLICANS ARE OUT TO KILL YOU (0+ / 0-)

      ... How's that for couching the message in terms they can understand??

      They will steal your money to send it to billionaires, they will destroy your jobs, they will take health care away from you, THEY WANT YOU DEAD.

  •  If we kiss your ass? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jbsoul, ridemybike, Alumbrados, seabos84

    Will you throw us under the bus later to last?

    "If this Studebaker had anymore Atomic Space-Age Style, you'd have to be an astronaut with a geiger counter!"

    by Stude Dude on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 01:59:37 PM PDT

  •  Despicable. (5+ / 0-)

    If they do this, the national should unenroll them immediately.

    I won't believe corporations are people until Texas executes one. Leo Gerard.

    by tgrshark13 on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 02:59:44 PM PDT

  •  I know several of the Ohio (11+ / 0-)

    building trades guys.  They are hardened yellow-dog democrats.

    Something truly regretful must have happened for them to even consider endorsing Kasich, who is a reactionary and very anti-union.

    “The answer must be, I think, that beauty and grace are performed whether or not we will or sense them. The least we can do is try to be there.” ― Annie Dillard, Pilgrim at Tinker Creek

    by 6412093 on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 05:04:34 PM PDT

    •  Kasich is probably threatening them.... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dirtandiron

      ...with right to work or loss of prevailing wage. He's done it before.

      "I know you cannot force people to care. Ukraine is far away for many, all have own problems. But even if cynical, realize problem will grow. It isn't only people like me, raised in a dictatorship, who don't want it to happen to others"-Gary Kasparov

      by LordMike on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 07:32:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I think that since Michigan passed the (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LordMike, buffie

    right to work (for less) law, assholes like Kasich hold it over the heads of the unions like the sword of doom.

    Where are all the jobs, Boehner?

    by Dirtandiron on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 06:04:02 PM PDT

  •  Local building trades unions traditionally vote (5+ / 0-)

    endorse and campaign for Republicans, regardless of the union busting goals of the Republican Party. Nothing NEW here!  The building trades unions comprised the so-called Reagan Democrats , whom Reagan often referred to as the "silent majority". First, ALL POLITICS in America is RACIAL!  The impact of the African slave in America, and on America is embedded into the nation's founding cornerstone. The anti-bellum southern slave owner held a sense of hateful disgust against the American Negro in common with the white industrial trades and mechanical workers of the northern states.

    The fear among the white tradesmen was fueled by vicious competition for jobs. W.E.Dubois in his historic book "The Philadelphia Negro" recounts how prior to the end of the Revolutionary war, Negroes owned and operated thriving businesses in Philadelphia as Caterers, Cooperages (makers of barrels), and Carriage and Wagon manufacturers. Philadelphia had a large wealthy Quaker population who were quick to recognize that Negro businesses provided high quality and good service, so they freely patronized these establishments. However upon the conclusion of the Revolutionary war a large number of British Red Coat mercenaries decided to settle in and around Philadelphia. This created a very large labor pool desperately looking for any kind of work. The competition for service jobs soon became fierce, concluding over time with the white immigrants eventually driving the Negro companies out of business.

    This ancient race based hatred has been passed down from generation to generation of white immigrants unto the present day. This historical example of Philadelphia has been repeated with slightly different circumstances in many northern cities and states from the earliest days following the Revolutionary war.

    The fact that the trades have evolved to the modern union supported trades of today, that race based animosity continues today, and responds to the Republican message  of racial exclusion. This is why the majority of these Democrat union members vote Republican in spite of the anti-union stand of the Republican Party.

    •  You are claiming that all AFL-CIO building (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Gooserock, Patango, Dirtandiron

      and construction trades members are racist republican voters while on a progressive Democratic Party site in strong support of the union movement..... yours is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence, which you didn't deliver.

      Why are you trying to divide Democrats with your comments by pitting construction trades unions against civil rights supporters?

      •  If a person supports and votes for Kasich I (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        auapplemac, buffie, JanL, No Exit

        don't see that they can be called a Democrat.

        Obviously, not all these union members have the same political opinions, and possibly the union leaders don't agree with the majority of members, either.  So any statement applies to some people and not to others.

        However, any union member who supports Kasich is probably voting against their economic interests for some reason.

        Possible reasons I can see are: they don't support unions, their cultural/religious/political beliefs are more important to them than their economic self-interest, they're afraid if they don't vote for Kasich they'll lose their jobs, and racism.  There's probably a reason or two I've overlooked, but I think these are the main factors.

        One or more of these reasons may motivate any particular individual, of course.

      •  Study the history of the Labor (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Stude Dude, auapplemac, No Exit, AlexDrew

        Relations Act.  The AFL fought tooth and nail against integration in the labor movement.  That opened the way for the Federal Courts and not the NLRB to become involved in the Labor Movement and civil rights in the 60's.

        Any man's death diminishes me because I am involved in mankind. Therefore, send not to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee. John Donne

        by scurrvydog on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 07:57:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  It's not a good idea to get all of (0+ / 0-)

        your news and history from DKos. otherwise is dead on.

        New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

        by AlexDrew on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 08:40:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Interesting but I don't think any of that (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Gooserock, Dirtandiron

      applies to contemporary Ohio. It seems alien to me as someone living in Ohio.

      Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

      by anastasia p on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 07:15:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Nonsense (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AlexDrew

      They don't always endorse Republicans. In some Repub towns and counties where Democratic wins are highly unlikely, maybe. But not always Repub.

      Where are all the jobs, Boehner?

      by Dirtandiron on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 08:46:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  is it false consciousness or payoffs /nt (0+ / 0-)

    Warning - some snark may be above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 "I’m not the strapping young Muslim socialist that I used to be" - Barack Obama 04/27/2013 (@eState4Column5).

    by annieli on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 06:48:41 PM PDT

  •  sometimes the unions completely and utterly (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Stude Dude

    confuse the fu*k out of me!!!!

    __

    we're never gonna learn, are we?

    ugh.

    every adult is responsible for every child

    by ridemybike on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 07:04:21 PM PDT

  •  Appeasement (0+ / 0-)

    It's time to trot out the Neville Chamberlain analogy.  Entirely appropriate.

  •  Some of this is fear of "immigrants taking our (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Naniboujou, JanL

    jobs"....at least that is what my husband says he hears a lot.  I don't get it.  If immigrant have to be paid union wages too, because they are now citizens...what jobs would be lost?  They would be competing at a fair advantage instead of taking less pay under the table.

    •  There are virtually no immigrants in Ohio (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Gooserock

      to take their jobs. Who? A handful of Mexican farm workers in Painesville? We have an utterly minuscule immigrant population.

      Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

      by anastasia p on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 07:18:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What I've seen happen is a contractor will (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JrCrone, JanL, No Exit, Dirtandiron

        bid a particular job at the lowest prevailing building trade wage rate for every employee he needs, regardless of the skills required for the job. For instance, bidding the laborer rate of pay despite the fact the job will require carpenter or painter work. So this contractor wins the bid and ultimately brings in his own crew, comprised primarily of Mexicans, who are not citizens but who are legally entitled to work in the US. He will use this crew to perform all the work, regardless of the scope. Consequently, for example, the contractor will have a laborer perform carpenter work but only pay him at the lesser laborer rate of pay. The individual will not complain to the DOLunder threat of lay off and a trip home for good.

        The reason you may not see a large number of these workers in Ohio is because they are members of a travelling crew. They travel around the US, going from job to job. They come in to perform the job and leave when its done. They keep just enough money to live on and send the remainder to their families in Mexico. Western Union is making a bang up business with these arrangements.  

        Can I get a Grey Goose on the rocks over here?!

        by G Contractor on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 09:32:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Duh.. limited jobs (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      auapplemac, AlexDrew, Dirtandiron

      You seem to think as long as an immigrant makes union wages it doesn't affect a citizen?  

      That's crazy talk.. there are limited jobs in this downturn.

      More competition for limited openings. Add 10 million new workers, and the competition has just doubled or tripled.

    •  The fear of "immigrants taking our jobs" (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JanL, Dirtandiron

      in the building trades is an entirely reasonable fear, depending on where you live and work. Different job sites, different contractors, different sub-contractors. MrJrCrone swung a hammer for a living on and off for three decades in a union town. Well, not as much any more.

      There is a population of contractors that uses non-union immigrant labor that way-undercuts what anyone can bid. The local pols, dominated by Democrats, hasn't touched this issue. I don't know why it is such a non-starter. Right-wing paranoics would have a field day with it, if they gave a natural crap about saving trained union labor and workplace safety. But, in this town, this fear has more than a little to do with strong concerns about illegal immigrants and not having enough jobs in the building trades.

      Too often, it translates into racism. Although, there are plenty of illegal European Union folks in the trades as well.

      Darling, you didn't use canned salmon, did you?

      by JrCrone on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 08:53:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's not reasonable in Ohio (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        buffie

        The teensy percentage of immigrants here is in a way disgraceful. If you're thinking Hispanic, they're a virtual non-factor here.

        Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

        by anastasia p on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 09:13:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Pretty much thinking everyone (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dirtandiron

          But the building groups are heavily either Hispanic or Asian on residential jobs around here.

          What? No Irish or Scots overstaying their tourist visas to remain in Ohio?

          Darling, you didn't use canned salmon, did you?

          by JrCrone on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 12:09:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Do they actually need to be reminded (12+ / 0-)

    of Regan and Patco?

    What the f**K is wrong with these people.

    PATCO supported that jerk Regan and in returned he fired them and the union busting grew from there.

    As I see it, they are a bunch of short sighted selfish jerks if they back the anti union politicians.

    “We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both.” Louis D. Brandeis

    by Jjc2006 on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 07:13:05 PM PDT

  •  Stunning!! A union that votes for a Republican (5+ / 0-)

    is like a Jewish person voting for a Nazi. I dunno, sometimes I think that some people need to suffer via their choices to some extent to clear their heads.

  •  My cousin works in an electricians union... (12+ / 0-)

    ...and many of his coworkers listen to Rush Limbaugh. He asks them what the GOP has ever done for them, but they're too busy being tough guy Neanderthals to get their heads out of their butts. It's very easy to get Americans to vote against their own self interests.

    Regulated capital serves the people, unregulated capital serves itself.

    by Alumbrados on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 07:18:00 PM PDT

  •  While they're f'king idiots, the Dim-0-Crap brand (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LordMike, Dirtandiron

    is offering ...

    all kinds of employment for all kinds of highly credentialed highly degreed yuppie sell out toadies to Gate$ and Wall $treet!

    I gotta give credit to the Re-Pukes -- they've done such an outstanding job redefining the middle that their yuppie puke opponents can't attract working stiffs!

    wow.

    decades of LOTE LOTE LOTE = this crap.

    rmm.

    Yond Cassius has a lean and hungry look; He thinks too much: such men are dangerous

    by seabos84 on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 07:19:40 PM PDT

  •  Sickening Especially Considering the Big Statewide (8+ / 0-)

    push to repeal issue 5/2 and the union help in GOTV for Obama in 08 and 12.

    Now that I'm a retiree wing member I'll be contacting my organization asap.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 07:26:16 PM PDT

  •  Staggering Stupidity -- Loving Your Enemies (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Stude Dude, ichibon, buffie

    Reagan-loving dumbf*cks!

    Talk about a disconnect with reality.

    Those are unions which shouldn't be missed when they vote themselves out of work by politically supporting right-wing politicians trying to destroy them, their families, and their middle class lifestyles.

    Astronomical Assholishness.

  •  What can I tell you. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Stude Dude

    We have stupid people in Ohio. A once educated, proud state has become a mass of scared, quivering bone heads.

    •  Yeah what happened? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Stude Dude, ichibon

      I remember OH as the cool place when I was a kid in the 70's. Legend Valley, all sorts of rock venues. Lots of bikers, decriminalized weed. Big on unions.

      Now? Bible thumpers, crazy people with guns, meth labs.

      We took our eye off the Great Society and slid back into third world. (I live about 40 miles from OH)

  •  Since Kasich's Gunning for Pres 2016 Unions May (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Stude Dude, Dirtandiron

    be figuring he'll continue tacking moderate as he's already doing, such as accepting Medicaid extension, so they may be expecting a better deal such as more infrastructure jobs, and less RW hassle from him for a couple years.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 07:28:59 PM PDT

    •  No, he won't (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      buffie

      He has no shot at being president, particularly considering the horrific catastrophe his second term with be. He has a mad-dog legislature pushing him to the far far far right. He's blown through so much money there won't be any infrastructure jobs anymore, especially since he's cut county funding which provides a lot of those jobs.

      Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

      by anastasia p on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 09:15:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Do they really consider Medicaid extension or (0+ / 0-)

      conservation, etc.? Don't think Medicaid is on their radar.

      They want to work. They may see their jobs being limited by undocumented workers. Many unions were very racially challenged when the government was pushing them to integrate in the 50s and 60s.

      It's all local. Do I have a job? Can I buy a new TV? Can I go to the local tap and have a few beers with the guys? Are we going hunting this weekend?

      It's a small, small world.

      It’s the Supreme Court, stupid! Followed by: It's always the Supreme Court! Progressives will win only when we convince a majority that they, too, are Progressive.

      by auapplemac on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 09:26:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I can see why they are considering it... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mama jo, Stude Dude, JanL, Dirtandiron

    When the teachers unions went after Kasich, Kasich publicly vowed revenge, and he almost got it.  Prevailing wage is still the law in Ohio, but with no chance of dems getting the Statehouse or the Senate and Kasich likely to win, you can see the bind that these unions are in.  I bet there is a corrupt bargain in the works, and it's not a smart one for labor.  You can't trust a republican, period.

    "I know you cannot force people to care. Ukraine is far away for many, all have own problems. But even if cynical, realize problem will grow. It isn't only people like me, raised in a dictatorship, who don't want it to happen to others"-Gary Kasparov

    by LordMike on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 07:31:07 PM PDT

    •  We can't say Ohio without Oh! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Stude Dude, buffie

      We might not be the stoopidest state, but I'm thinking
      we could crack the top 10 list.

      Where else could someone like Rhodes win
      a goobernatorial race--after what he caused to happen
      at Kent State?

      The thought of Kasich winning makes me want to puke.

    •  They are not "in a bind" (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Patango, buffie

      With FitzGerald as governor, he would block any anti-union crap coming out of the lege. He would also have power to pressure restoration of some of the moneys that Kasich has cut from local governments – which employ these clowns. Kasich will take their money and run. It's how he operates. They are fools. Right to work will be slammed through by this time next year, probably sooner.

      Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

      by anastasia p on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 09:17:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Thank you (0+ / 0-)

      That's what I think must be going on there. It's like if a guy walks up to you holding a gun asking for your money, you give it to him hoping he won't shoot. I think that's the way the unions there see Kasich. You know, give him his endorsement and hope he doesn't kill us.

      Where are all the jobs, Boehner?

      by Dirtandiron on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 08:21:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This is the same thing as in WV (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Stude Dude, buffie, JanL

    Except we got the coal miners doing it.

    Basically the mining companies keep cutting jobs by stripping mountains and more mechanization but they have the rank and file convinced that environmentalists are the real trouble. Even though 90% of the job losses are due to either mechanization or all the natural gas.

    It's a form of the Stockholm Syndrome really. Totally understand it. We must support our corporate master so that we may catch the crumbs that fall from their table. People who are trying to help us thru raising our wages or making workplace safety rule are really killing our jobs.

    Weird but true.

  •  Go ahead, build another Burj Khalifa with cheap (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Stude Dude

    labor, this time in Cincinnati.  No doubt the building will lean 1%....

  •  Good Lord... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Patango
    "We're pragmatic with our politics. Jobs are our currency," said Sean McGarvey, president of the Building and Construction Trades Department at the AFL-CIO in Washington.
    I was related (by a previous marriage) to Sean.  Spent many a holiday with him at family get togethers.  His dad and mom were a couple of the most progressive, salt-of-the-earth, pro-union folks on planet.

    Sean has become an example of how beltway politics works.  I'm saddened beyond belief to read this.

  •  it's the talk radio. all the left has to do to (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Stude Dude, buffie

    turn the country's center way left is start fixing that radio problem. but that would require recognition of a problem.

    This is a list of 76 universities for Rush Limbaugh that endorse global warming denial, racism, sexism, and GOP lies by broadcasting sports on over 170 Limbaugh radio stations.

    by certainot on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 07:45:26 PM PDT

  •  Building trade people are (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JanL

    a bunch of morons.  They supported a republican sheriff here in Montgomery Co. because "he was tough on illegals", and they endorsed Mike Turner R OH-10 against Sharen Neuhardt, who is also Fitzgerald's Lt Gov. running mate, because . . . they could never say.  Bunch of ignorant immigrants from Kentucky.

    Any man's death diminishes me because I am involved in mankind. Therefore, send not to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee. John Donne

    by scurrvydog on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 07:49:14 PM PDT

    •  There are probably so few "illegals" (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      buffie

      in Montgomery County it would take a year to find one — almost as long as it would take to find a reliable voter in Montgomery County whose dismal turnout helped do us in back in 2010 and whose affection for the useless Mike "Who?" Turner is head-scratching.

      Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

      by anastasia p on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 09:19:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Quite a few (0+ / 0-)

        Dayton has become one of those cities that is welcoming immigrants because our population and industry has moved away in the past 30 years. Don't scratch your head about Mike Turner - he is a friend of WPAFB, our only major area employer that has been more or less stable. I despise him but he is affable in retail politics, not obviously a wing nut. As for our turnout problem, the old machine politicians are dying off and those that have taken their place are fighting over the crumbs that are left here. It is a pity this city of inventors has fallen so far. They don't call us "Little Detroit" for nothing.

        Think what you are doing today. -Fred Rogers

        by JanL on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 04:11:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  No HR from me, but calling folks "morons" is (0+ / 0-)

      HR worthy, IMHO.

      Where are all the jobs, Boehner?

      by Dirtandiron on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 08:23:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  summing up the building trades unions (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Stude Dude, Egalitare, buffie, No Exit

    As one of my fellow nurse union leaders said: The building trades would be just fine with concentration camps as long as they were built with union labor.

    "Wouldn't you rather vote for what you want and not get it than vote for what you don't want - and get it?" Eugene Debs. "Le courage, c'est de chercher la verité et de la dire" Jean Jaures

    by Chico David RN on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 07:50:19 PM PDT

    •  That's not the case. (0+ / 0-)

      It's just that they are hogtied by the labor laws. They can't just refuse to build something because the end user is a non-union company. Because most end users of office buildings and factories are non union, they will end us like the air traffic controllers. One time I asked a union business agent why housing construction was mostly non-union. He told me that it was set as a precedent back before WW2 and then it became set in stone and hard to change. That's why they have to man (or woman, what have you) any job in their jurisdiction, they are terrified of losing any ground.

      Where are all the jobs, Boehner?

      by Dirtandiron on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 08:27:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  seems like mostly a non-sequiter (0+ / 0-)

        The point is not what jobs they work on, it's what policies and politicians they support.  And they consistently support building anything and everything, no matter how harmful it may be to the environment or good planning, as long as there may be a few jobs to be had building it.  Somebody wants to build an oil refinery next to a wildlife refuge?  Count on the building trades to support it.

        "Wouldn't you rather vote for what you want and not get it than vote for what you don't want - and get it?" Eugene Debs. "Le courage, c'est de chercher la verité et de la dire" Jean Jaures

        by Chico David RN on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 05:27:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  IBEW member here. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DocGonzo, Patango, JanL, Dirtandiron

    http://www.toledoblade.com/...
    I was bummed out until I found this article that says the IBEW is supporting FitzGerald. I couldn't read the entire WSJ to see if we've switched sides because of the pay wall. I would be shocked if any local supported Republican candidates.

    •  IBEW has been a consistent "outlier"... (0+ / 0-)

      ...in many states in this dynamic. I have no idea why they often part company with the other building trades in these circumstances, but I've seen it occur in several races in four states over three decades.

      Change does not roll in on the wheels of inevitability, but comes through continuous struggle. --Martin Luther King Jr.

      by Egalitare on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 02:56:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I have an idea (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ceiba, JanL, Dirtandiron, AlexDrew

    After reading the article (Has anyone noticed that Laura's articles are labeled, "Daily Kos Labor?"  I'll get back to that) and then the comments, I have to wonder why anyone is surprised Dem's are losing craft tradespeople support.

    In the comments we have these hard working American's called stupid, racist, dumbf*cks, Neanderthals, short sighted selfish jerks, naive, etc.  

    As someone who get's up every morning and works with these men and women, I can tell you what they really feel about the Democratic Party is Abandoned.  And the comments here reinforce that.  But it's not just our collective attitude, it's the also the policy decisions Dem's have made when they have been elected.   Anybody remember 2009?  Democratic House, Democratic Senate, Democratic President; yet not the "political will" to pass the Employee Free Choice Act.  How do you define "political will?"

    Which brings me to Laura's Diary title, she uses the word Labor; proudly and unapologetically.  That used to be  pretty much a core value for the Democratic Party, unfortunately, not so much so anymore (do a google search).

    So my radical idea is, instead of disparaging and name calling these hard-working tradespeople, maybe we ought to step down off of our intellectual high horses and talk to them.  Show them we really do care about their genuine concerns.  And then when we really do gain significant political power, maybe we ought just make our legislation reflect our rhetoric.

    Because based on my experience, just saying, "Well, duh, you should just know Democrats are better for labor," just isn't going to cut it.      

    •  Not buying that (4+ / 0-)

      I agree that the Dems have abandoned labor and the New Deal cause, long ago.  But white working class Americans were complaining about being Abandoned and Forgotten by the Dems beginning in the late 60s, when George Wallace and the Nixon began whipping them into a frenzy believing that their hard earned money was going to support a bunch of "lazy blacks" who laid around all day and never did a lick of work.  It was the building trades who were among the leaders in the flight from the Democratic party in 68 and after - and it was the NYC construction workers who were on the streets beating up war protesters.

      It seems to me part of the problem here is that the Left too often sees unions as a panacea, and imagines every worker who is a member is a politically savvy guy with his own personal copy of the Communist Manifesto and the IWW constitution under his pillow. The fact is, most of these guys aren't so well educated to begin with, and are just as likely as anyone else to act out their ignorance when it comes to politics. This strikes me as more of the same.

      The other problem is that unions always act to protect their jobs - and when it comes to the trades, they don't really give a crap if that means killing spotted owls and wrecking the environment - another reason unions are not and never will be a panacea.  Just look at the building trades support for Keystone.

      So no, the cry of Abandonment sounds to me like a whining excuse for their own bad behavior by a crowd of people who mostly don't know their political ass from their elbow.  I do not expect them to wise up, either, any more than the coal miners of WV ever did.  What I do expect is that the Dems should make an effort to appeal to the union vote by doing what they ought to be doing for everyone's sake anyway: rebuilding infrastructure, shifting to green energy, raising taxes on the rich, etc - that will employ plenty of people, put money into education and decent roads etc - and that will get the union's vote.

      •  Competing Unions Would Be (0+ / 0-)

        If we had enough workers in unions to support competing unions in the same geography for the same gigs, that could be the "panacea". Or at least the appropriate organization of labor for their members' best interests, including general welfare like environmental protection.

        But each current union wouldn't want the competition. They're playing a losing game on every front - as people who are only out for themselves do. Back the Republicans and you're taking a cruise on a crocodile, away from the Democratic shore which is your only possible way to avoid being dinner.

        "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

        by DocGonzo on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 09:02:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  That's so generic it's irrelevant (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Patango

        Ed FitzGerald has NOT abandoned labor. He talks constantly in his speeches about his support for labor and was out front in the fight against SB 5. He has been unwavering and openly in support of labor. But Kasich abandoned them long ago and no amount of sweet talk is going to change that reality.

        Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

        by anastasia p on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 09:21:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  A little more complex I think (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dirtandiron

        Fish,

        First maybe a little history:

        "But white working class Americans were complaining about being Abandoned and Forgotten by the Dems beginning in the late 60s, when George Wallace and the Nixon began whipping them into a frenzy believing that their hard earned money was going to support a bunch of "lazy blacks"

        Yes, the "Southern Strategy" worked in the southeast, but that area was never a labor union intensive bastion to begin with.  It played on existing prejudices, but our side was almost completely absent at countering it.

        "and it was the NYC construction workers who were on the streets beating up war protesters"

        Well the "Hard hat" backlash in NY is considered historically significant because it was well outside of the norm of the protests at the time (sort of a man bites dog story).  But sure their were plenty of working class people upset by some of the anti-war protests going on at the time.  See, they had kids that had been drafted and were serving in Vietnam and didn't have the wherewithal to get them student deferments.  Our side wasn't actually very savvy in dealing with that particular dilemma, hence why Nixon beat McGovern by a landslide.  

        "It seems to me part of the problem here is that the Left too often sees unions as a panacea, and imagines every worker who is a member is a politically savvy guy with his own personal copy of the Communist Manifesto and the IWW constitution under his pillow."

        Oh my goodness.  Can you source for me any modern Democrat that thinks the Communist Manifesto is a good plan?  And IWW?  It hasn't been 1936, since well 1936.

        Now on to the more modern part of your reply:

        "The other problem is that unions always act to protect their jobs - and when it comes to the trades, they don't really give a crap if that means killing spotted owls and wrecking the environment "

        Um, yeah, they are really dedicated to feeding, clothing and housing their families and as far as I can tell, that usually requires a job to do efficiently.  But, here's the big thing: Rather than saying you either have to lose your livelihood or be responsible for mass extinctions, why don't we use our collective liberal brain power to come up with a win-win scenario? We're supposed to be the smart ones, right?

        And finally, probably on an overly personal level:

        "The fact is, most of these guys aren't so well educated to begin with, and are just as likely as anyone else to act out their ignorance when it comes to politics."

        As one of "these guys," I'll gladly discuss the issues with you anytime you want.  But, before we do, I suggest you go read up on confirmation bias and motivated reasoning (oh and definitely US history).  Otherwise, you're probably not going to enjoy our discussions.

        •  NYC (0+ / 0-)

          That was one city. And most of those men are retired or deceased now. And the NYC locals do not influence what a local in Ohio does with the state elections.

          Where are all the jobs, Boehner?

          by Dirtandiron on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 09:20:17 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Sorry meant to reply to soublefish's comment (0+ / 0-)

          above.

          Where are all the jobs, Boehner?

          by Dirtandiron on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 09:21:37 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I know a fair bit of the history (0+ / 0-)

          but I am always open to correction.  I assume the same of you.

          Nixon's "southern strategy"did not work only in the SE. It worked over much of the country, including in the sunbelt (the locus of Ken Phillips' 'new Republican majority') and it worked in urban/suburban areas of the NE and midwest.  One of the reasons Nixon adopted it is because he noted that Wallace was polling very well in the North among white voters.  This is well understood by historians: it is a matter of consensus, and has been written about (and puzzled over) for years.  One of the first to write about the phenomenon was the journalist Peter Schrag, writing in the pages of Harpers magazine in 1969 ("The Forgotten American")

          Most recently (past 10-15 years) the focus of debate  among historians has been over the question of whether northern "ethnic" whites were motivated by a deep-seated and perhaps unconscious racism or by other factors, like a "sense of fairness" and so on.  Thomas Sugrue (Sweet Land of Liberty) and Jonathon Reider (Canarsie: The Jews and Italians of Brooklyn Against Liberalism) have written extensively about this. (For a short take, see Jonathan Rieder, "The Rise of the "Silent Majority," in Steven Fraser and Gary Gerstle, The Rise and Fall of the New Deal Order)

          Many studies have faulted the working class for its racism, sexism, or misplaced patriotism, arguing that the defection of white ethnic blue-collar workers from the Democratic party was a defection from the progressive agenda.  But there is an important counterargument put forward by Barbara Ehrenreich (Fear of Falling), Christopher Lasch (Revolt of the Elites) and Joshua Freeman, among others, the basic gist of which is that the real betrayal was effected by the middle class (or upper middle class, white-collar elites), who played up the "working class backlash" theme because it suited their agenda of crushing the radical left. In other words, it was the elites who abandoned the workers, not the other way around.

          These two arguments are by no means mutually exclusive: both can draw upon strong evidence in support of their claims.

          As for the rest - I won't go point by point, but suffice it to say that I fully agree with the argument you offered at the end: we should use our "collective liberal brain power to come up with a win-win scenario. That is exactly what I suggested in my last sentence.  

          ALL Americans are "dedicated to feeding, clothing and housing their families", and ought to be.  But I do not agree that that absolves any of us from acting in a public-spirited manner: when engaged in political activity, including voting, we are all obligated to consider what is best for the nation as a whole and not only what is best for "me". Still, human nature being what it is - particularly when confronted with an economy of artificial scarcity - I find it perfectly understandable that an individual voter be inclined to support the politician who happens to look like they are going to do right for them. But it is inexcusable when union leaders act this way - it shows a tremendous lack of political judgment, as many of the above comments have rightly suggested.

          "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting it to come out different"

          •  The solublefish/Rev1800 debate (0+ / 0-)

            gets my vote for the most enjoyable, enlightening comments in the forum.  But the comment by Chico David RN really had the ring of truth:

            As one of my fellow nurse union leaders said: The building trades would be just fine with concentration camps as long as they were built with union labor.
          •  Sure, I'm willing to learn, but... (0+ / 0-)

            C'mon Fish,

            You cite multiple sources, but not in a single one of them does it state how labor's inclinations are broken out (or more importantly why).

            Yes, Wallace had an early lead in the polls in the north, but it fell quickly as the election approached.  Which, by the way, most historians site as his coming from a "right to work" state as the reason for his northern demise.

            That period of time was very difficult for working class people (please see my comments above), but your original post suggests (at least to me) that we should abandon them, because well maybe, they didn't have the same opportunities (or natural talents) as others of us.

            And then there is, "As for the rest - I won't go point by point"

            Well, why not?  I think I make important points about your use of the Communist Manifesto and the IWW. Points that would directly reflect on your credibility on the issues. So, why not address them?

            As a final note, and again probably more personal than intellectual:

            "ALL Americans are "dedicated to feeding, clothing and housing their families", and ought to be.  But I do not agree that that absolves any of us from acting in a public-spirited manner:"

            Well, come talk to me when you think you really can't feed, cloth, or house your family (exactly how publicly minded do you think you'd be)?  The Democratic Party I grew up in fully understood that that was real challenge that could  face hard working men and women.  I think it's still that party.  But I got I tell you, I don't think it will exist if we continue to denigrate the people who built it.
             

            •  If you like... (0+ / 0-)
              You cite multiple sources, but not in a single one of them does it state how labor's inclinations are broken out (or more importantly why).
              Don't understand your banter, "broken out" - these sources do talk about working people, certainly; some address labor directly, but they don't detail union-by-union support or non-support of candidates. But if that's what you mean, then...you are grasping at straws.
              Yes, Wallace had an early lead in the polls in the north, but it fell quickly as the election approached.
              Completely irrelevant to my point, which was that Nixon stole Wallace's fire to court voters that Wallace was so obviously reaching. Your assertion might actually be evidence in favor of that.
              Oh my goodness.  Can you source for me any modern Democrat that thinks the Communist Manifesto is a good plan?  And IWW?  It hasn't been 1936, since well 1936.
              Straw man argument which misconstrued my point.  What I was suggesting by the reference was that the Left tends to have rather too romantic a concept of labor - as if when labor acts, they act according to principles like those asserted by the IWW or Marx, i.e. for the cause of human emancipation rather than the advance of their own narrow self-interest.  My argument is that in fact labor more typically acts out of narrow self interest - and that this is sometimes a problem (e.g. Keystone)

              As a side note, the "plan" of the Communist Manifesto that you poo-poo bears in some respects a close resemblance to what we call social democracy, of which New Deal in the US is a (rather pale) example - including in its provisions such revolutionary items as "a heavy progressive or graduated income tax", "abolition of all rights of inheritance", public ownership of communication and transportation, and free schools.  Perhaps the Manifesto and the goals of the IWW are not so irrelevant to our current circumstance as you seem to think.  

              Of course, there is one respect in which the ideas of the IWW and Marx are certainly "irrelevant" to the "modern" AFL. For the stated goal of the IWW, as of the socialists and, once upon a time, of the Knights of Labor in the US was to place control of productive property in the hands of the workers rather than that of a tiny elite class of "owners".  This is something many of us on the Left still regard as a very good "plan" - and which workers in Italy and Paris, among other places, fought for in the streets in 1968, before the "conservative resurgence" of the 1970s destroyed the integrity of their social-democratic parties as it did our own.

              Alas, the goal of worker ownership has never been shared by the AFL, whose devotion to "craft unionism" amounts to an acceptance of the capitalist system of ownership and a determination to work within it to gain a "fair share" of the spoils for workers through the lever of collective bargaining. AFL leadership, beginning with Gompers, have made this explicit many times.  

              Well, come talk to me when you think you really can't feed, cloth, or house your family (exactly how publicly minded do you think you'd be)?
              Yes, that was exactly my point: it is completely normal behavior for human beings to act out of narrow self-interest when their survival is threatened; and so, as I said, I agree that the Dems must act in a manner that takes this into account by developing a politics that provides jobs and a future. Personally, I would be happy to take FDR's "economic bill of rights" as a basis for such a politics, starting with FDR's definition of the meaning of liberty:
              true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence
              Perhaps that is a point we may agree on: for if we all possessed liberty of this sort, none of us would ever feel compelled by need to vote for a Kasich.
              •  Well let's to get the heart of it (0+ / 0-)

                Fish,

                You wrote: "Yes, that was exactly my point: it is completely normal behavior for human beings to act out of narrow self-interest"

                That ain't "narrow self-interest," that's called being a human.

                Now here, let me give you another Headline...

                "Poll: Abbott holds double-digit lead over Davis in Texas gubernatorial race"

                Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/...

                Should I denigrate women as being too dumb, personally selfish,racist, or overly connected to a communal cause to not realize how us good liberals are trying to make their lives better and they don't realize it? (helpful hint; women, like labor were instrumental in building the modern party).

                Or maybe, just maybe, I should ask, "Hey fellow liberals, why aren't we reaching these people?  What are we doing wrong and how do we fix it?"

                Fish,  I don't know what your answer to that above question would be to labor in the mid-west, but whatever it is, I think it would apply to women in TX ?

                Your thoughts?

                •  I think we will have to disagree (0+ / 0-)

                  at this point. I am certainly not going to accept your assertion of identity between "being human" and acting selfishly - that's an idea that may fit comfortably with the Adam Smith or Ayn Rand set, but which I reject.

                  Nor am I interested in getting dragged off into whatever argument you conceive behind the tangent you proposed above. We have already moved far from the original issue that animated our discussion - without resolving our difference - so at this point I think we might better shake hands and part company. Perhaps we will cross paths again.

      •  Totally agree... (0+ / 0-)

        but the sad part it was not always like that.  Before Regan, unions supported each other. Labor UNIONS were about LABOR.

        As a teacher, I was on strike in the early 1970s.  Rarely before then had public employee unions dared to strike.  It was unheard of for teachers, especially elementary teachers who then were mostly female, to strike.  After all, teacher's unions had only gotten in on STRONG collective bargaining in the the 50s and 60s.  I remember when I started teaching in 1967, most insisted we were an ASSOCIATION not a union.  

        Anyway, we were in a small district on the edges of a major city.  Many of our students had parents who worked in the refinery.  We were surrounded by factories.   Our strike was for a small raise, but the biggest issues were class size, teacher input into curriculum, female teachers' rights to not be fired over being pregnant....teacher protections against what had been common practice of administration having the power to fire with little or no proof of incompetence.  We wanted principals/admin to document when they wanted to fire someone.

        Anyway, negotiations broke down and we went on strike. ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of us walked out.  I remember walking on the picket line, and as trucks drove by they honked, thumbs up.  Very few parents even allowed their children to cross the picket line.  The strike only lasted four days because the parents made it clear they wanted the board to negotiate.  They knew our demands were not unreasonable.  

        A few years later I had moved to the southwest.  Lo and behold, another tough negotiation year. I did not have tenure in that state as it was only my second year there.  The issue there was big.....the right to collective bargaining. The southwest states were hell bent on keeping those union types out of their states.  I was teaching in one of the most conservative cities (Colorado Springs, CO) of that purple state.  But I was naive. I walked because I believe in collective bargaining.  Only 50% of the teachers struck cuz ya know...."we don't believe in striking like you easterners....."    Companies like COORS beer gave their employees with college degrees a day off with pay to come down in buses provided (a 90 minute ride) to substitute (to this day no COORS beer is allowed in my home).  But we held firm.  The picket line was hard.  The majority of the strikers were the junior and senior high teachers.  My elementary school with a staff of about 35 only had 12 out.   Sometimes I picketed alone.  Sometimes three of us.  I was called names, passing cars flipped the bird and called us dirty effing hippie commies and other such things and it was COLD and snowy (December).

        We all lost money but we persevered and were able to retain collective bargaining.  However we failed in getting much else (like lost pay or protecting untenured teachers from being fired to teach us a lesson).  Seven young teachers were fired.  One of my close friends was fired.  I could have been too.  He went on to do other things and never returned to teaching....a loss for students.

        Still it was worth it.  That district still has collective bargaining albeit I do not know for how much longer. Most of the activist teachers have retired and I am not sure younger people value collective bargaining.  After the 80s and Regan, I think many unions felt deflated, defeated and betrayed.  Yet still some union members are going along with anti union republicans; are being duped by FOX and blaming all the wrong people.  Sadly, too many dems at the top (including Obama, Bill Clinton) have not been strong enough union supporters.   If labor does not come together: police, teachers, firefighters, nurses, electrical, steel, builders, etc etc etc....then it is inevitable.

        The only effective answer to organized greed is organized labor.—Thomas Donahue
        We truly are fighting the greatest effort of organized greed since the Gilded Age.    If labor does not wake up, come together, I believe our progeny face years of a Dickensian world, fraught with poverty, ill health and violence.

        “We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both.” Louis D. Brandeis

        by Jjc2006 on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 07:27:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Those guys in NYC fighting with protesters are (0+ / 0-)

        mostly retired now. And that's NYC, they don't influence Ohio state politics.

        Where are all the jobs, Boehner?

        by Dirtandiron on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 09:24:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Are Ohio Democrats not doing this (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dirtandiron

      because from what I've been told, that's exactly what they've been doing.

    •  Thank you! (0+ / 0-)

      I became Democratic because of my belief in unionism. Instilled by my Dad, before I was even old enough to work. But sometimes I do feel frustrated when I read of the DLC, third-way, triangulation, inside the Beltway type of Democratic politicians. (No I don't mean Pres. Obama) I voted for Bill Clinton twice, and would do so again because there was no alternative. But I felt very hurt by his enthusiastic support for NAFTA.

      Where are all the jobs, Boehner?

      by Dirtandiron on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 08:32:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Any union that endorses Kasich is corrupt. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DocGonzo, anastasia p, buffie, JanL

    You can't make this stuff up.

    by David54 on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 08:48:26 PM PDT

  •  I'll Take Environment Over Union Jobs (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    White Buffalo

    I don't think I should have to choose. I think that unions protecting workers inherently protects the environment, because it's the workers' environment to protect too.

    But unions disagree. And so they are doomed. Until they agree. Hopefully not too late. There are other ways to protect the environment, even without unions helping.

    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

    by DocGonzo on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 08:55:13 PM PDT

    •  I think it's important to present alternatives (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dirtandiron

      because when someone feels you are attacking  their job, you have to shake them to make them listen. Why do you think Kucinich came in third of three candidates in the last congressional primary in Ottawa County? Because he announced he wanted to shut down Davis-Besse nuclear plant. It provides half the jobs in the county. If he was going to go there, he should have proposed prioritizing the county for sustainable energy businesses like manufacturing wind turbines or solar panels. But he didn't. By the way, I saw the woman who defeated him today, Marcy Kaptur, and she's real unhappy about the way campaign finance laws are going. That's one of her big issues. Marcy is so terrific I wish we had a lot more like her.

      Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it. http://www.edfitzgeraldforohio.com/

      by anastasia p on Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 09:24:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  IF you don't want them building a coal plant or (0+ / 0-)

      a gas pipeline then have them build wind farms or something. Then it's win-win. Otherwise you are just hurting average people.

      Where are all the jobs, Boehner?

      by Dirtandiron on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 08:36:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Unions did discriminate (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Patango, buffie

    My father-in-law could not join the electrical union in NYC because he was Jewish.  He worked for himself for less.  We are romantic about unions and workers when white union workers have been lovers of the worst of the Republican party for generations.  Union is a nasty word to most of them.  Leaders of the unions go along with this.  If they vote for the likes of Kasich they deserve what they get which is whatever the Koch Brothers decide to dish out.
    If they love the extraction industries that destroyed and still pollute their land, get a clue.  Dumb does not cut it in this global world where they are already sold out.  If they love Rush/FOX they are racist tools only a short step away from the KKK.  None of that fits the 21st Century, I hope.

  •  They deserve what they endorse n/t (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    buffie, LillithMc
  •  So have they been copted or are they uninformed? (0+ / 0-)

    In several situations I know of personally, union locals have voted to give up for example pension benefits, etc. supposedly to keep their jobs, and then the jobs were cut anyway.

    It seems to me that some of this indicates that there is inside Liebermanitis?  Quislings?

  •  Fucking idiots. Kasich, like all RW stooges... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JanL, LillithMc

    ...WANTS TO DESTROY ALL UNIONS.

    Kasich will ram through RTW just like Snyder did in Michigan.

    Any union which endorses any of these wingnut puppets needs to be disbanded.

  •  Building trades needs to lose (0+ / 0-)

    any representation they have on executive/central/screening committees of state and county Democratic Party organizations.  We can't have people of this ilk screening our candidates and making party decisions.

    Any man's death diminishes me because I am involved in mankind. Therefore, send not to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee. John Donne

    by scurrvydog on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 05:57:39 AM PDT

  •  if Unions ever wonder why... (0+ / 0-)

    Union membership went from 35% to 11% just show them this post.

  •  just as in (0+ / 0-)

    fla when the ff union supported jeb bush because he promised them he wouldn't touch their retirement but actually gave them a sweeter deal when scott was running they had changed their tune and were against him and wanted sympathy.

    of course leading up to scott the other unions that got screwed by bush were not a concern for the ff, this is similar to the police unions in nj who supported christie but after he got elected he went back on his promise and tore their retirement apart, not the port authority police though they remained whole.

    unions that vote for republicans are traitors to other working class americans and are why america is being torn apart from the bottom up and the middle class are slowly being eliminated as a segment of the society. the label of hard hats in ohio might not go far enough hard heads is more like it or just short sighted and capitulation.

  •  This is not all a surprise. (0+ / 0-)

    Union membership does not make anybody a progressive.   Unions have ONLY one purpose, increasing the share of income that goes to their members.

    Public employee unions give the impression that they are progressive, because their income comes from government programs.     They are no different from miners and steelworkers.

    Just look at the teachers union.   They are eager to protect a system of education that is failing many of our brightest kids.  They protect the system because their job is IN the system.

    Upton Sinclair, author of The Jungle, said:

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!
    None  of them represent what is best for people outside their group.
    •  That is total BS (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Dirtandiron, LillithMc, jbsoul

      YOU have bought into the right wing meme of "failing public ed" when that is NOT the case.  Poverty is failing our students, not teachers unions.

      Yes, teachers unions have fought for better pay and job security but not at the expense of students. A bad teacher CAN be fired, bad teachers have been fire. I KNOW that is a fact because as a union rep, while I protected the "rights of due process" for every employee I also made sure if due process was followed, the bad teacher was gone.  It is called documentation and admin doing their jobs.

      If you did some research you would know that if we eliminated the scores of schools with the highest poverty, American students score in the top three in math, science and reading worldwide. You won't read that because the corporate press works for the corporations who see dollar signs on the heads of students and the chance to profit by destroying public ed.

      But being a teacher does not guarantee a progressive any more than being in a union or not in a union guarantees it.  But overall, teachers unions have and will endorse progressive candidates most of the time.  Exceptions are there for sure (just look at Christie).   People can be duped.  Teachers are people.

      Clearly even here on DKOS, members can be duped into buying into right wing lies and BS.

      “We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both.” Louis D. Brandeis

      by Jjc2006 on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 08:42:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dirtandiron, jbsoul

        Public schools and teachers have been under attack for a generation by the same privateers who are looting everything else.

      •  I have not been duped (0+ / 0-)

        I have not been duped by anyone.   I am very aware of the system as it exists with personal and professional experience.

        Your vehement denial of my right to my own well considered opinion is exactly what I would expect considering Upton Sinclairs observation.

        •  Well, I spent (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jbsoul

          forty plus years in the system and that does not include my own schooling, part of it in public facilities and part in "private".  
          So I have been in schools for the better part of 64 years.

          You can have all the opinions you want, sir, but you cannot make up your own facts.  

          Public education has and can be again, if we care, the way to level the playing field.  But we have that pesky poverty issue that the right refuses to acknowledge.

          You call yourself a progressive and trash teachers and teachers' unions.  Go to Red State...I assure you that you will get kudos and recommends there.  

          “We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both.” Louis D. Brandeis

          by Jjc2006 on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 11:45:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  More Personal attacks . (0+ / 0-)

            Your personal attacks don't really phase me, but I am certainly glad that you are no longer teaching.   I pity the fate of a student who would disagree with you.

            The only fact I stated is "that the system is failing many of our brightest kids".  

            I'm glad to know that that is not true.  Thanks!

            •  I consider (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              jbsoul

              this to be quite personal as well as a false generalization:

              Just look at the teachers union.   They are eager to protect a system of education that is failing many of our brightest kids.  They protect the system because their job is IN the system.
              Now that was what riled me.

              And as far as personal attacks, you seem to do quite well at hurling them as in this...... but I am certainly glad that you are no longer teaching.   I pity the fate of a student who would disagree with you.

              Many a student has disagreed with me over the years.  They survived and so did I.  For the record, I still substitute and do quite well with students and teachers, past and present.
              I could cite examples but why bother.
              You trashed teacher's unions. I called you out on it and you got angry and hurled personal insults.  That's YOUR thing, not mine.  But whatever, if you want to denigrate teachers and still call yourself a progressive, go for it.  Sad, but your decision.

              “We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both.” Louis D. Brandeis

              by Jjc2006 on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 04:34:08 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  This needs to be a diary, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bobtmn

      but it would get you banned:).

      Just look at the teachers union.   They are eager to protect a system of education that is failing many of our brightest kids.  They protect the system because their job is IN the system.

      New Republic: So are the left-wing blogs as bad as the Tea Party ones in this case? -------------------------Chuck Schumer: Left-wing blogs are the mirror image. They just have less credibility and less clout.

      by AlexDrew on Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 08:52:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  They really like me! (0+ / 0-)

    This union reminds me of an abused child who responds with devotion because the authority figure does one nice thing for them. Remember Teamsters for Reagan? That worked out well for air traffic controllers, didn't it?

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